Earlier this year, Phil Singleton was recently interviewed by Kim Doyal, The WordPress Chick.
The WordPress Chick Podcast is listed at as a top WordPress podcast by just about every “best of” list you will find – and rightly so!
This podcast interview below covers starts off with some background info, but most of the discussion revolves around the SEO benefits of podcasting for both the podcast guest and the podcast host.
This episode was inspirational and was part of the motivation to create a podcast booking service called Podcast Bookers.
In my 12 years of focusing on search engine optimization and SEO friendly web design, podcast guesting is by far the most powerful form of content marketing that I’ve ever seen.
Background & SEO for Growth
Kim: [00:02:15] Hey what’s up everybody. Welcome to another episode of the WordPress Chick podcast.
Kim: [00:02:19] I’m your host Kim Doyal that WordPress Chick and you guys are in for a treat today because we’re going to talk about something that still seems to be a mystery to many people. I’m really excited today. I have Phil Singleton on the show. Phil Thank you so much for being here.
Phil: [00:02:34] Super psyched to be here. Thanks a lot.
Kim: [00:02:36] Yeah. So Phil and his partner John Jantsch have written a book called SEO for Growth. So that’s what we’re talking about. And you’re going to have to bear with me because I feel a little bit selfish and like I got to pick his brain for stuff that I need to know. But I think it will be helpful for the audience still.
Kim: [00:02:54] So you know before I you guys have some pretty impressive backgrounds. I will I will say that you’ve had a pretty fascinating career that led you to to as here really. And so can you share a little bit of your journey with the listeners.
Phil: [00:03:09] Yeah you know I didn’t start out that way. I went to school got a B.S. in finance and then my first job out of school was with an insurance company.
Kim: [00:03:18] I’m sorry.
Phil: [00:03:21] I know – I think about that first three years. My first job out of school was literally at an insurance company in a beige office building in a beige cubicle. And I just thought you know I was doing OK there. At that time that time the economy was in one of its downswings. But I just felt my life life getting pulled into this direction. Being a 20 or 30 year insurance veteran just wasn’t going to happen. I just had to make a big change. I ended up – for lots of different reasons – I ended up packing my bags and moving out to Asia and studying Mandarin Chinese because my dad’s company was doing a lot in Asia, and I had friends in college that were getting overseas experience. I figured “hey” if I didn’t do something drastic and pull myself out of a career that was being laid out in front of me…and you know more money you make, the tighter the grip of the golden handcuffs. It feels like you can’t get out and be in control your own destiny. I mean this huge change – I think my parents thought I lost my mind – to go to Taiwan to study Chinese. Then I went back to grad school and my first job out of grad school was with a venture capital company back in the day of the dotcom era.
Phil: [00:04:34] So I was working for a U.S. company that was based in Taipei, Taiwan and we were helping these dotcom companies raise a bunch of Asian venture capital. And it was great, it was a heyday. Being able to speak Chinese and raise money from Asian investors was really easy to do back then. Of course and all of a sudden that bubble popped and that whole industry was pretty much gone. But what had happened, and what led me to the path I’m on right now, was that a software company kind of fell in my lap because I was at the right place at the right time. This company that was actually based out of St. Louis. Again I was based in Taipei Taiwan they were called 321 Studios and they made a software product called DVD X Copy. You it remember Napster back in the day? This was kind of the second coming DVD as well really popular music consumer software that enabled people to make backup copies of their DVD movies right. So it was sold everywhere like best buy and the company had a jam. And of course they had their own legal issues and the Hollywood studios came in and started to kind of see them try to shut them down which they ended up doing.
Kim: [00:05:41] Yeah.
Kim: [00:05:43] But a copyright infringement there.
Phil: [00:05:45] It was a “fair use” battle versus the DMCA: the DMCA said you can’t copy DVDs, but consumers were like “hey we can’t copy stuff we bought?” But guess who ended up winning that battle.
Phil: [00:05:56] Yes.
Kim: [00:05:57] The guys with deeper pockets.
Phil: [00:05:59] Now the rest of the world (outside of the US) for a little while still was able to sell this software under fair use rights laws in their respective countries. But then Hollywood basically took their lobby to the rest of the world, and won. But but for a short time, one or two years, I was able to basically able to continue selling it online and through other retail channels around the world. So the company did really well last year of operation. I heard from one of the two owners that it was like a 200 million dollar cash company the last year of operation. So we still sold a lot of it outside of the US for the period. But the interesting thing that happened, keep in mind that this was over 15 years ago, was that most of our sales were coming from online affiliates. These guys were basically operating forums and early versions of blogs. So we were selling a $99 dollar piece of software. The big affiliates were getting 50 percent of the sale. These guys had lifestyle gigs, back in the day when AdWords top dollar clicks were like $0.25/click. Here the were getting 50 dollars of every $99 sale. Meanwhile I had 25 employees. We had investors, product development, product support, office space…. our little piece of that pie shrunk down to almost nothing. Yet here were writing checks to these guys for 50, 60, even $70,000 per month.
Phil: [00:07:21] So I was like at that time “holy crap” what’s going on here? I liked like to be on the other side of that affiliate equation. We ended up selling what was left of that company, and I moved back to the states and took what I had learned, which was search engine optimization. My background is similar to yours in some ways. I read yours was in retail. Well I have this software company that fell into my lap. It was just me that’s fine and I’m a finance guy. Finance and business development. I had a software development team. I also had designers and I had asked them what how does this SEO thing work? How does Google work? They both gave me answers that didn’t really make sense. So I kind of had to dig in and figure out why pages were ranking how is this happening. What makes web sites raise to the top? I “self taught” myself, and luckily I got a chance to learn at the global level. That company ended up being sold off around 2005, and then my wife and I moved back to the states. I was overseas for 10 years and ended up moving back to Kansas City because I have family roots here.
Phil: [00:08:33] I am fluent in Chinese. I figured it would be nice to set up on the West Coast, but as the saying goes: Happy wife, happy life. We ended up moving here so my agency started here. It was a nice run that we had in Asia. I didn’t have to work for a while but I ended up buying a sports car. It was a 350 Z . I had this guy this guy at an auto detail shop detail it for me and make it look new again. And it was one of these barter deals. Yeah right. I made a little auto detail shop out website out of front page or Dreamweaver – something really silly I’m sure. But I ranked it number one on Google for this guy really quick, and all of sudden it changed his life basically because he was selling you know $50 details to auto dealers (making nothing) but now he was getting consumer retail inquiries from the website for $200. One website, a couple of more trade deals. Now a few years down the road we’ve done hundreds of custom web sites and we rank you know very well here in Kansas City for our own services. It’s led to all sorts of other things you know, relationships, books deals, all those things. That’s my that’s my path. You know a little bit of self-taught SEO and web design and trying to make the best out of opportunities as the came.
Kim: [00:09:45] You totally did. And it’s so like there’s like a million questions in your intro. I’ll try to stay focused. First kudos to you for taking off and going overseas. It’s interesting right.
Kim: [00:09:54] And I know I’ve got kids and I would love for them to go overseas and just go for it. Neither of my kids actually want to have job jobs because if they’ve seen what I’ve done and that it’s awesome. I mean what an amazing experience. I would think that that probably really shifted your mindset on what you wanted to do with your life just in general pretty much.
Phil: [00:10:17] You know I think once you break free of the corporate shackles, and once I became an independent and worked for myself, I was like “this is it!”. I was never going to work in another corporate position again. Part of that was just taking the plunge and in doing that. I think it did totally change my mindset. It gives you confidence to do things, anything really.
Kim: [00:10:45] Well yeah. I mean and you didn’t go to like England where they all speak English.
Kim: [00:10:50] You chose you know I mean becoming fluent in Mandarin stuff I mean you really you took a leap and it probably made starting your own agency seem like a piece of cake after having experienced a completely different culture. I just I think it’s awesome. So kudos to that. What a great experience. All right so obviously we’re here to talk about your new book as SEO for growth and you know it’s we obviously we can’t cover the entire book in an hour. And the goal is to get people to buy the book because of course it’s great. But I wanted to so I kind of went through and I’ve gone through stuff I think would be most helpful for my audience. And here’s a real basic question but I really think we’re going to pretend the whole there is no stupid question thing but people don’t really get. Can you explain Inbound Marketing.
Kim: [00:11:35] Before we dive into the SEO stuff.
Phil: [00:11:38] Well I mean I guess that is a different definition of what that would be. You know Brian Halligan I guess going to be one of the guys that really has defined it. We’ve got to start the spot.
Phil: [00:11:49] But to me my definition of it is really anything that you do that whole people and to use so you get an inbound versus doing kind of separate things out. Marketing in general these days is demand creation versus demand capture.
Phil: [00:12:04] Right so you got a lot of things out there where you get to spend money to try and get the word out. Some of the things you’re still trying to call a little bit more of an old school approach where you’re trying to figure out your advertising they we need to get out there and get people to know where we are worth the numbers or an inbound approach to me or about marketing is all about creating you know different types of content and developing your own brand of authority so that it draws people in so that you’re getting a chance to yeah your contacting you right the customers that are finding you versus trying to go connect with the masses and hopefully connect with one or two people that live near you. So that’s my kind of narrow definition of it and everything that we do obviously is going on the web based and try to create your website as the referral or the central hub of all of your heart and the platform.
Phil: [00:12:50] And it’s really about attracting the right kind of people.
Kim: [00:12:54] Well so let me ask you this. I am a huge fan of content and content creation and I’ve done paid traffic but I don’t know it seems a little bit to me like figure out the organic stuff and target your audience and start creating content that talks to them, because it gives you a better platform to launch paid traffic from like you already know what they’re resonating with so I don’t know like.. Any advice because I still see so many people especially web designers who don’t create their own content and they’re constantly building someone else’s business. But you know is there any advice in terms of the content creation that you would want to give.
Phil: [00:13:30] My whole approach for our own business is going to be you know try and focus on building your own website your own web presence. I think so much of it these days comes back to like just like your standard traditional blog post because there’s so much that can come off of that. Right. So let me give an example that we I mean obviously we’re trying. I don’t know what you have what your recommendation is but for my own business or for clients that we work with you know you’re trying to say let’s at least try and get a blog post a week or maybe two a month, so. But one of the things that we like to do is to try to figure out how can you get one piece of content or one effort try and get you know two or three or ten X out of it rather than just one X right. So it’s an example of that. One of my favorite I guess content generation or content marketing tactics would that be it would be this. OK. So doing these one-off blog post we’re probably targeted keyword or something like that.
Phil: [00:14:22] Or maybe target one of these things that’s trending and it might be you know sharable or hot in the market now let’s figure out how we can create a blog series right at like 10 or 15 standalone blog posts that could be part of a series of that and see if there’s a way we could stitch them together into an e-book and into a Kindle that we can then use that as something to launch off and do multiple things that you’re doing like the one piece of content one time but we’re kind of find ways to get multiple wins off of it. And that’s the kind of stuff that we recommend the clients do with web designers people are trying to get to the next level because it you have to you have I mean your web sites page the same thing right.
Your web site. I mean it’s an asset. It has to grow.
Phil: [00:15:01] Your web site. I mean it’s an asset. It has to grow.
[00:15:04] I mean one things everything you do you want to be the referral source of everything that you’re doing. Even podcasts as we go out look out. Like for podcast or go and try to figure out which one it might be a good match. I see someone who’s been out there for a long time and it’s still popular to this day but they don’t use the site their own Web site as a platform to showcase it though. Put it up on like you know lives or somewhere else and you go to their Web sites. There’s not even a place I guess that would probably be a little bit more of an amateur move but I’d be surprised the ones I’m researching and trying to create my own database there are a lot out there that don’t use their own website as the river or source for the podcast content so try to tie all that together and make sure that you know you’re constantly generating content plenty of investing and blog posts and try to invest in other forms the concept of making sure that it’s all that your web sites are referral source. I think that’s one of the things that’s missing with everybody. You probably see this too at some point like one of the things we see with local clients working in the city is that people are doing anything from a content standpoint a lot of times what they do is they’re posting their best up on Facebook where like it dies right there’s no trail back there, right.
Kim: [00:16:14] I was I literally had a sorry a sight. And I’m out of the Web site gigs now by the last site I had done. One of them and the money guy I literally said well what do we need a web site.
Kim: [00:16:27] We have our Facebook page. And I was like I’m pretty sure your name is Mark Zuckerberg. So you don’t have that none of that is yours.
Phil: [00:16:35] He’s Happy.
Kim: [00:16:36] Yeah.
Phil: [00:16:37] Cause it’s people like you to put some you know put those posts put those are put up on a blog post and then share that. So people have to come back right. I mean this is all of that obviously you’re already doing. But many people do that they do anything they go put their best stuff up on somebody else’s platform and don’t invest it on their own site. They leave them as these digital brochures that are static and don’t download the rest of the stuff that they’re doing on the site.
Kim: [00:17:00] So yeah I think you know it’s funny I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday who they’ve created a tool to help web developers get content from clients. And I’d like what I found. I don’t do a lot local sites because then when I was doing it felt there was a lot of education required in terms of really understanding how important it is to create content for your site. But you know it’s I’m floored truly that you were saying that Phil that people are just hosting podcasts on libysn and or stuff that that’s fascinating. It really gives me a ton of ideas for content.
Phil: [00:17:35] Oh I I’ll go off on that later. I had a whole thing I got this start to study this because I mean this is part of my content marketing strategy or I tried to reach out to people like yourselves that you don’t have an audience and a niche targeting those that are doing it that I think are the right way to come up with you know show notes and that kind of stuff and give a chance people a chance to have some kind of representation on your site so that we can go again go kind of share it out as I think about how I see how some of these websites are doing it there’s so much room for opportunity to kind of expand on just this piece of it that it’s really got me pretty pumped about this whole piece of content it’s like I do all these things to do. You know I think this podcast thing is probably one of the best most maybe untapped areas because look I’m going off on some things that you haven’t even asked me on yet.
Kim: [00:18:26] I know.
Phil: [00:18:26] Yes. Right.
[00:18:27] So we think one of the ways that people you know try and improve the rest you know right now is to try and do great blog post right and try and do blog outreach and get their content placed as contribute or contribution. Those are guest posts on Authority Web sites right. Holy crap.
Phil: [00:18:43] It’s such a it’s so hard to some of these have really high editorial standards you need a thousand words sometimes 2000 words you got screenshots you’ve got a pitch them it takes a long time right.
Phil: [00:18:54] But you go out and find a podcast of somebody that already has an audience a authority in a niche. You talk to them which is much easier right then than trying to come up with the blog post and hem and hawing or hiring somebody a couple hundred bucks to do a really good one for you and all of a sudden you’re able to. One reason I second a lot of these ones the good ones anyway either out write ups or transcripts of things that was on the site with examples or resource lengths of things that were talked about in the podcast right.
It’s killer. Podcast guesting is basically kind of a secret guest blogging strategy. It’s truly organic and the kind of stuff I think Google wants you to be doing anyway. But way easier, way easier to do so.
Phil: [00:19:21] It’s killer. Podcast guesting is basically kind of a secret guest blogging strategy. It’s truly organic and the kind of stuff I think Google wants you to be doing anyway. But way easier, way easier to do so.
Kim: [00:19:35] And you know the other thing is it’s like I joke around I always said you know probably the podcast was one of the absolute best things I’ve done for my business. And the second thing is an almost daily e-mail right. That’s a separate conversation. But the other thing that blew me away because I did it I just needed to have more fun.
Kim: [00:19:52] And I’m a huge audio consumer and it’s the relationships right so having this conversation like I mean like sitting here listening to you feeling like you have an hour and who else can I get you on for shows kind of make some introductions because there’s that connection right and that’s the value that comes from that like takes it that much further.
Phil: [00:20:11] Totally. I mean I’m super pumped about that. And you talk about content and this is probably there are certain things that come up like once a year I’m just like kicking myself. I’ve been doing this for you know for longer. And I think part of it is because I am a true introvert. You know I went into finance I love SEO because I could you know basically change the world from my bat cave and then all of sudden and all sudden Google came out with the algorithm and then Penguin I was like that you actually had to get out create content put your name up on a Web site connect with people start talking right. So it’s an introvert’s hell to some degree.
Phil: [00:20:45] But it’s fun, it gets you out there and that kind of stuff and that’s really kind of what was driving a lot of this is do you see these guys out there on average going to try to get out there and create their own personal brand authority. And also notice though and this one’s key. Same thing with Linkedin I never really kicked myself for not getting more involved with Linkedin. I just started you can’t do that a couple of years ago I actually got some really good clients off regularly posting some of that stuff up there and I kind of feel like this now here you are. You’ve been doing it for quite some time John, who co-wrote SEO for Growth. And he was doing it back in 2005. And he said a couple times like he thinks that’s really what helped him launch not only his brand but he’s had several bestselling books and that kind of stuff and he consistently attribute it to the early getting involved saying about podcasting.
Kim: [00:21:31] So yeah well you know it’s funny again. Like I would like to tell you I had this brilliant strategy Phil. I just knew this was a better way for me to shine and connect with my audience and I wanted to have fun you know and the other piece of that. It’s funny where you talk about it. It’s like even Linkedin, there’s a lot of web properties because there’s only so much time in the day right. And I do have a question for you. They’re kind of all over the place based on how this is coming. But even like with Linked-In you know it’s like I’m on all those platforms but I can’t say that I know how to leverage them all so how does social media tie in with SEO. And I’m sure that’s a huge can of worms. But what you know.
Phil: [00:22:07] Well, it’s interesting because we wrote the book. We had a lot of I’m kinda going back and forth was we had we had, there’s a chapter in the book that addresses social signals for us you know we a lot of us I think are doing what I consider to like you know tactical work every day. We think there’s a lot of us that think there is a direct correlation between the kind of social activity that you get social signals back to your website or your content. But you know Google comes out and it basically kind of gone back and forth over the years. But I think their current officials stances. You know they can’t really count social signals or you know you know all the things you would consider a social signal like the likes and the pluses that we saw. So a lot of us who do this every day see people that are more at it know that there’s an at least indirect relationship and direct correlation between content that gets you know plus tweeted like pass around versus content that’s never clicked on scene.
Phil: [00:23:07] Right. And that makes perfect sense because when we see stuff that’s out there that feels like it’s got more activity behind it that is more interesting to us as people so Google some way somehow I believe has to be counting that. Whether again, whether it’s indirect because they’re able to gauge what kind of traffic or how people are visiting a site or they are actually somehow counting those signals.
Phil: [00:23:29] I mean I can tell you right off the bat that we incorporate a a social media program in with a holistic SEO approach that those tend to do a lot better than ones that don’t do any type of social. So, it’s one of these things I’d put money on. But if you go ask Google or go up in one of their forums, or their spokesman…
Phil: [00:23:48] Do you count, are social signals a ringing signal but they just come out flat out pretty much to say no they’re not because it’s too easy to manipulate.
Phil: [00:23:56] But if you ask ten SEOs I think nine or 10 of them probably tell you. Sure. Yes they do count. So what does that mean. It means again reading your best content putting it back on your website as a referral source and make sure that you’re sharing that content from your web site right because your web sites the marketing of it should be the marketing hub of every thing that you do and then and then passing you know sharing it consistently on all your social media.
Kim: [00:24:20] Well yeah I probably have the social platforms I spend more time on Facebook but I mean I look at where my traffic is coming from Facebook and Twitter send me a ton of traffic. But it’s always I’m sharing my own stuff on those platforms. You know I’d love your take on this too because I did my first Facebook livestream almost a month ago.
Kim: [00:24:42] Here’s the deal Phil so I pulled it and I got a plug that pulls the video and pulls the Facebook comments and WordPress comments. But then I wrote a post like here’s my thoughts on my first livestream and then at the end really I believe for me to continue that I want a strategy in place but it was that post then you know then I went and shared it. But that was my highest traffic day in months.
Phil: [00:25:01] Awesome. So you did the Facebook live post you pull that in on onto your site.
Phil: [00:25:06] You did a write up on it. Right. So that kinda sorts of people had to come back. Yeah. The highest ranking you probably got any answer you got is got the lead character and call the action character on your website. Yeah that’s nice, downloads and that all worked the way it’s supposed to.
Kim: [00:25:18] Yeah. You know and so I think there’s a way that I don’t know what I think a lot of people get like oh it sounds like so much but you know like my podcast there’s a lot of time that goes into my posts and I’m like “yea, but it pays off.” So if you do the work it will pay off. I could go 80 directions with everything you say so I’m going to bring it back. And one of the things you said in the book to what you’re talking about why ninety nine percent of Web sites fail. Are there a couple of common things you see a lot of people doing that you can share.
Phil: [00:25:45] I just think a big reason we wrote the book and I see this every day because we’re literally talking to small businesses, businesses of any size mostly based here in Kansas city.
Phil: [00:25:55] And I just see the way most of web design I think is still pitched today still pitched to me as a design driven thing as a digital brochure.
Phil: [00:26:06] You see that and I think part of it is you know obviously is a victim of its own name right who say web design and it really should be marketing platform is really what they are. But it doesn’t help that we’ve got like you know Wix and Weebly, all these guys trying to say that is our Web site and get us on Google quote unquote on the commercials you know don’t try to brainwash people that it’s you know these are things that are you know expenses and not investments. Yeah. So you say.
Phil: [00:26:30] And so I think the biggest mistake is not building a website around a marketing strategy. Right.
Phil: [00:26:39] Not just because I think the most the way people still go what was I was at least here in town was that the competition that we have was there still kind of pitched as digital brochures, right? So people pitching the design the creativity and the bells and whistles and the features. When I think they should be talking about return on investment what’s the marketing strategy you know where’s your where’s your high margin product or your low margin ones. What do we do to get our head around our business and reverse engineer a website that’s based on what your goals are right versus trying to just generate another show pony website that looks good for a while. That’s really what ends up happening a lot of small business owners are feeling burned these days because what ends up happening is they get these really nice websites out there look great and they think that they feel like they should probably be helping them make the phone ring but they end up not. After you’ve had a website for like two or three months this is your web website again right.
Phil: [00:27:28] It’s got to start making money.
Kim: [00:27:29] Totally.
Phil: [00:27:30] So I think that’s what a lot of know. But you’re a business owner or maybe you’re you know a web designer.
Phil: [00:27:34] That’s a little bit more kind of on the creative side. You just get these two people together and they’re just thinking about what they can do to kind of present you know their vision to the world almost like they were building the brochure and I think that’s where the big mistake is because there’s an opportunity very early on to make Web sites search engine friendly. Right. Figuring out who the ideal customers are how they search. What types of content they consume and then figure out how to build web pages and things around that versus let’s do, let’s figure out the website and then do SEO on it later. Not the best way to get the best ROI. So that’s been my whole pitch on it you know since the beginning and I’m coming into this industry as an outsider. I didn’t know a dang thing about web design or programming. I mean I learned what I’ve learned today just by what I had to learn to keep the business going to the next level and I literally give my little sheet that I sent you I got a D in computer science out of it is like this is the kind of the worst thing you know that’s come in my approach to all this has always been taught in the business owners and stuff is let’s talk let’s bring it back to the language they understand which is return on investment, right? Expense versus asset those type of things.
Phil: [00:28:41] And then and then we could put it in those terms I think is a lot easier to figure out or at least to avoid mistakes because I think that’s what ends up gives the web design industry kind of a black eyes and a lot of people these days and they want to build a website. They think it’s going to help them their business right because a lot of companies out here today they go out when they need marketing strategy they’re not searching for marketing strategy they’re searching for tactics. And I want help on social media, I need a new Web site, I need adwords right? They probably really have a bigger problem and that is probably more about marketing strategy and goal and you can’t shoot things anymore. They’ve got to be part of a holistic approach and really the Web site is the embodiment of a well-thought out marketing strategy. And that’s where I think there’s a huge opportunity for all of us particularly like web designers because they’re the ones who usually get the color right. Right. But they’re not always the first ones to talk about the marketing strategy piece of it I think. I don’t know if that really answers the mistake part of it is that you think there’s a big huge opportunity for business owners because for it they’re going to spend a thousand dollars on a website or $5000 or $10000 on it. So a lot of money to them. It’s an investment right. So they got to get the most out of it. It’s got to be in a way that I think helps them get a return on investment. And I think thinking about these things and asking the right questions and baking it into the website is, is you know is a huge opportunity.
Kim: [00:30:01] I totally agree it’s funny because I do think a lot of web designers don’t look at the marketing piece of it which is totally where I love being.
Kim: [00:30:11] But you know it’s like I over the last year my audience probably second hearing this but have gone back to old school direct response marketing principles and trying to understand copy and writing and and connection and pain points and selling and stuff and so if you know if a web designer, webdev, a company even doesn’t they need to find that person that knows how to position that right so that that the consumer the best little quick local sorry. I had had. There’s a local spa. It was the last night I started. I’ve known them I’ve gotten there for years and I’d asked him about his website way before and it was you know whatever. Well the problem is that nobody could buy gifts certificates. The site was so old Phil that the person who built it should use some scrawly font. All pretty and flowy. But they were images so all their content was an image. All right. So once we got the new site live and I put that gift certificate button all over the place all over the site 76 percent increase in gift certificates sales the first month the site went live. Simply just from having the content index-able on the site and having that button there.
Kim: [00:31:14] And you know and being you know mobile friendly and all that but it’s I do I think a lot of people just don’t get it. It’s not just you can’t just throw up a brochure site anymore, it’s you’re not going to be around if that’s what you do.
Phil: [00:31:26] Even on the web designer side.
Phil: [00:31:28] I mean I think it’s much easier to sell in where we are we start.
Phil: [00:31:32] Seventy-five hundred dollars, I don’t know if that’s high or low. But I mean generally we shoot for a $10000 website up and in general it’s informational website so how Howdy how are you that you can eat against other people that are one man bands or solopreneurs or guys that are willing to come in because they’re trying to get the next deal that they’re a thousand, two thousand or five thousand dollar website.
Phil: [00:31:51] We do that by pitching the return on investment. So right.
Phil: [00:31:55] Because if you if you’re going on cost then it’s digital for sure go after just the artwork piece of it. But if you can go on as a web designer and say I’m not going to build something that looks really good and is functional I’m also going to help you position this thing that actually makes you money. Now you can actually charge a lot more money for write because you’re actually teaching it as an asset I think that’s a huge opportunity.
Phil: [00:32:16] But you’ve got to get your head of the marketing so that more and you can’t really just the big issue that I have folks is that they’ll go out and say “well, are you going to talk about are you going to dress as SEO or Google” like it’s a side of french fries or something. Are you going to drop those plug in and we just optimize your site right there. I never touched it. You got to go further than that. So was a big opportunity for the business owners to understand. They don’t just treat this thing as a digital brochure. If you’re a web designer and get into a little bit more because you can actually sell your services for a lot more money. It’s positioned as an asset and a revenue generator you know versus just a digital brochure.
Kim: [00:32:58] Yep totally agree. All right. So this is a little I this is a totally selfish question but I would love any tips on getting over my hatred of keyword research because I know it’s important but it’s just I feel like I no matter what I look at and you know, keys to your book helping but it just seems like I can’t wrap my head around it.
Phil: [00:33:22] So to me that’s still the heart and soul of my whole process it all kind of. And I still you know my go to tool is still good old adwords keyword tools of course I think for a lot of folks they say they just put that down you got a new account but my accounts have been so active that I get the same amount of data that I’ve always gotten. But I know they say newer ones they strip it down give you a lot less in terms of the keyword data or they group it. But you know I mean I use hrefs and SEMrush. I really try and spend a lot of time especially initially building a new Web site to try and you know drill down and get what I would consider the top 50 or 100 keywords in that and use that to go the Web site and actually build a content marketing plan around that. So is there any easy way to do it? Not really. I mean it’s just part of the grind that when you kind of do it get your master list and kind of revisit it and make sure you incorporating it into your your content strategy. It really does pay off and you don’t. You don’t have that piece right. Anything that you build on top of it is you just don’t know where the finish line is. Right. And we see this time and time again and I think I heard some of your podcast you were just like geez some of it’s like not even remotely optimized or you know they’re not going have the right keywords or even ever. I mean every company that comes in is usually they hear blogging or more blogging. They just start blogging.
Phil: [00:34:41] And it’s just randomly blogged about stuff or if they just would have, you know thought about it and do some type of theme or keywords or product that they’re going into they’d probably get 10 times more value out in terms of traffic or just building the SEO equity of the site.
Phil: [00:34:56] I don’t really have an easy Magic Box number but if it were that easy I guess or didn’t. It may be harder to make a living.
Kim: [00:35:07] Yeah. You know it’s one of those things too. And I think probably for a lot of you know, marketers, entrepreneurs even you know coming up with their own content strategy it’s like you really, and again like going I feel like I’ve gone backwards money and to go to some of these fundamentals it’s like you really have to take the time to do the work and do the planning and look at it. I was actually writing a post for a solo show today and talking about kind of some shifts that I see happening with all my marketing and a lot of the hype. I think the space is maturing, the hypes always going to be there. But you know with you see a lot of listicle posts and especially in the WordPress space where I’m like really do we need another top 10 WordPress SEO plugins posts, like I get it. If those things rank in but it’s like I don’t know that there’s necessarily sort of an end goal strategy to just other than this aggregation of a bunch of random how to do this with WordPress stuff.
Kim: [00:36:01] And so my question with all of that is you know where does Google. I thought I forget maybe it was Syed Balkhi, but saying you know Google’s actually looking at the type of content you’re creating and more conversational or you know does that stuff come into play as well.
Phil: [00:36:17] Yes I still think you know those kind of posts are still kind of doing pretty well and probably will do well for a while.
Phil: [00:36:24] Yeah I mean the facts are the facts. Still to this day. The long form posts seem to be outperforming, you know the shorter thinner ones and there are a lot of different factors and I think most of the time somebody’s willing to write a 1500 or 2000 word post and put the time in and they’re probably adding all sorts of stuff and a nice reference links, embedding video, making graphics and pictures and so a lot of this has to do with what is a quality rating factor, but it’s also one of the big thing that’s been state over the last like six or 12 months in the industry, a hot topic is dwell time on the site. Right? So, if it’s going away from the old you know thought of where people were worried about you know what’s the bounce rate if somebody comes on a web page and bounces off is good or bad and you know most of the consensus is, it’s not really good metric and Google’s probably not using it. But were people are seeing a correlation is when people are spending more time on a page or somebody spending 10 or 15 seconds versus spending 20 or 30 minutes on reading a long post or whatever.
Phil: [00:37:24] A lot of people think that they can prove that there’s a correlation for that kind of stuff. So the listicle tend to be a lot longer.
Phil: [00:37:30] Right. They tend to have a lot more content in them and they tend to get passed around and linked to more especially when you’re when you go to listicle somebody where we’ve got OK here’s the top 10 people are saying this. They’ve got links in it that could spread out socially. Those folks link back to it and then amplify all of a sudden for you know just a general listicle thing which you’ve seen a million times because it’s generating that amount of social signals. They still tend to do pretty well.
Kim: [00:37:55] I mean I’m and don’t get me wrong I write them and I like them. Most of my posts. The only time I post of mine is less than a thousand words is when I take my daily e-mail and I write it and I’ll copy and paste it I’m like it’s extra content. I do the social share I put it out there. It’s crazy that that works to me by.
Phil: [00:38:13] Well, getting on the dwell time piece on this topic.
Phil: [00:38:15] Is, this is what really got me amped up got like 10 more points on the podcast is so awesome for SEO. But the fact that like somebody like you does the write up so well. Right.
Phil: [00:38:27] And then you linked to this and that’s referral source and the fact that the actual podcast is embedded on the page.
Podcast audio and podcast transcripts increase web page ‘well time’ which most SEO expert believe to be a very important organic search engine ranking factor.
Phil: [00:38:34] This really helps you get a lot more credit for that dwell time factor right. As we sit on your page and in your case you’re listened to like an hour 45 minutes in some cases like 20 to 30 minutes which is still great but this is an awesome way. You got me thinking like I getting my own podcast on because.
Kim: [00:38:51] You should.
Phil: [00:38:53] Video people just don’t hang out. You got to get one or two minute video right?. But the podcasts suck us in. You get into it you’re doing something, you can still be working and suddenly we’re all sudden now you’ve got somebody hanging out on your side for 30 40 minutes. Has to be a strong ranking factor so.
Kim: [00:39:09] Well let me ask you this. I saw this and I thought this was so brilliant to me. And it was. And I want to say I don’t use them but I think it was Instapage and said they had a lead magnet offer. And so I opted in and the whole thing was on the pages. It wasn’t some PTF downloads so it’s like you know like say six chapters and then you could click through but all of the content was sitting on the site or I was just on MOZ I think about content on it and it’s like they do almost like a table of contents everything is all on the page and it’s like that’s, brilliant!
Phil: [00:39:41] You’re hanging out there.
Kim: [00:39:45] Right. And then I’m like oh God, I could totally do an e-mail sequence triggered from somebody spending time on the page. Then send them the download if they want but essentially putting a lead magnet on the page so people are staying on the site.
Phil: [00:39:58] Exactly. And that’s another fad or people are going to be able to disprove it or something but this seems to really be a lot of proof especially when we’re really getting like these very competitive generic global organic searches where people are looking for information on words to convert people. You know the trend is this kind of stuff is working so great content and well I’m up and doing just get really clever about “how do we keep people on a page and keep as long as possible” because there are correlating those with higher rankings for that piece of content.
Kim: [00:40:31] That’s awesome you’re totally making like my brain spin in a million directions. So let’s talk a little bit about link building. I don’t know if you have any tips or best practices. It’s one of those things, like I’ve never had a strategy for it because I think I’m not really sure where to start.
Kim: [00:40:44] Obviously your book will help but like what you know any suggestions on getting started and link building.
Phil: [00:40:51] You know a lot of it’s going to be any type of guest posting you can do things canbe really helpful as long as you’re doing it you’re doing it for the right reason the right reason would be to establish yourself as an authority. Make connections that you have offline, online. And try and really at the end of the day if you can get your content or get a link on a Web site that you can. This is the way I look at it, kind of the golden rule of link building is if you can justify you for or you didn’t try and go out and scam it somewhere you actually earn that site. Third party place.
Phil: [00:41:22] That’s kind of where you want to keep your focus but guest blog person still is one of those things that people have again tried to game and just used for volume based link building which is a no-no. But if you can put them in the right places and really try and leverage the audience first. I mean you look at what kind of website it is, is it thematic. Does it relate to your business you’re in and do the people that consume the content on that third party site to post on are those are those ideal clients for yourself? So that kind of stuff really helps people talk about link building in the book actually where you know all of SEO for like the first 10 years of it was all about making great tweaks to your website trying to get as many banks as possible right. And also Google dropped the penguin bomb on it and that whole offshore you know scam, volume based link building the model totally crashed. That being said, backlinks are still probably one of the most important factors out there. So it’s if you really want to compete in competitive niches, you can’t really avoid it. So you got to be proactive in how you do it. So a guest blog post is going to be you know, the big thing working through trying to make connections. In some cases being smart about being reciprocal and trying to find places where hey can I post you on a certain topic and maybe later you can post on mine and we can cross reference each others audiences. Also things like this.
Phil: [00:42:44] I mean this literally right now this conversation is part of my link building strategy that they’re doing we’re doing. I’m doing it not necessarily for one of these but literally when I had the team that’s working with me to try and find the ideal people to be guest posts on. The first thing that we would look at one is, I run and I do a quality chat on my site and see do. What’s the what’s the what’s their profile look like what’s their domain authority is this a legit site in terms of how Google looks at it and then it’s like do they. How are they being smart about how they actually repost the content so you obviously in your case you’re doing all of things that I would consider are smart for from an SEO perspective, which makes it another win, another cascade for somebody to come on your show. This is a great way to build links. So being a guest on a podcast would be one. Guest posting on whatever kind of relationships that you have so, sometimes people don’t even realize that they can post on stuff. So you know you’re like here in town, I am a member of a lot of associations. So the better business bureau three or four chambers. In a lot of cases you know, people don’t realize that they could actually take their content or their press release or even a blog post and republish that on one of these sites with Google’s eyes are really trustworthy and high authority right.
Kim: [00:44:02] Yeah.
Phil: [00:44:02] You just have to ask so I went and I said hey the BBB show we can I guest post an educational post on your website. They said sure you’re the first person to ask that we did it. Now I’ve got other client on, right? We went to the same thing with some of the chamber sites and asked them to repost the press release. They will give you a back link to your website. It’s a matter of asking. So things like that we can go out kind of just ask. Especially one that you’re really paying for. There’s an association or something, that’s a great way, especially if you’re doing local. The great way to get a very high quality back and back to your Web site.
Kim: [00:44:33] You need to do a paid class on podcasting for SEO.
Kim: [00:44:36] I will sell it for like you figure that I’m I just think it’s one of those things like It makes me really excited that I have stuck with this.
Phil: [00:44:45] But I can think of a really good idea right here.
Phil: [00:44:47] Yeah!
Phil: [00:44:51] I think I see people doing transcripts right?
[00:44:53] I personally like the way that you do summaries, because they’re a little more personal. But if I had my own podcast which I probably will probably some point here, I think what I was thinking is geez wouldn’t it be awesome if, if I did it the way you did it in terms of like writing it up. So fresh in you know you could write this stuff up.
Phil: [00:45:10] But it’s there a way to get a transcript right and then offer that to the guests as almost like a guest post on their site so they republish right?
Kim: [00:45:21] OH! Holy moly!
Phil: [00:45:23] And then you ask them to embed it and then maybe even include your hey we do this, would you mind putting a mention or link back to where my sponsor is for the day whatever. Now all of the sudden you’re getting access to their audience. They go amplify and do all that kind of stuff.
Kim: [00:45:36] OK so I’ll send you the transcripts. I’ll do that.
Phil: [00:45:40] As a test. The other thing I think people do or maybe they do maybe I’m just not noticing.
Phil: [00:45:45] But you know I want to come in here and like literally name drop names like John Jantsch, like I got a great example. My next thing is Josh Steimle, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this guy. He’, he’s just he’s an influencer out there is a great book called, a couple of them I think, Chief Marketing Officers at Work, I believe is what its called. It’s basically a series of interviews that he’s done 15 or 20 of them with high profile chief marketing officer. Right.
Phil: [00:46:14] So, when I have a podcast or what I would do probably is trying to figure out can I do a series of podcasts with very specific questions with people in a niche and then have the transcript be like Josh did in his book and had that make it a chapter.
Phil: [00:46:30] So you got these interviews now all of sudden you buckle together and stitch an interview and you’ve got a really killer book like he did with the people in it that have kind of basically helped you write it.
Kim: [00:46:39] I’m just like, I’m just like in awe. So if I’m quiet I’m just I’m taking notes too.
Phil: [00:46:44] But I it’s basically the way he did it so he basically went and interviewed all the people he thought were ideal clients, ask them a specific set of questions. But of course if you’re doing a podcast you know, I guess you’re basically like writing a book.
Kim: [00:46:58] Pretty much, yea.
Phil: [00:46:58] And in most cases if you’re going to do that and you amplify it and that kind of stuff I’m sure you could get a lot of people to do it and all of the sudden it’s like you’ve got transcript that ends being put together the right way. Now you’ve stitched together and you’ve got a really cool book, the people are in it. If they’re in it and this is what kind of comes back. I’m going to take one more step back to SEO for Growth. If you look at this with fresh eyes you’re going to see that we came up and we got like 50 influencers to endorse it. I got a quote from an influencer on every chapter. I’ve got an expert to watch at the end of every chapter and each one of those people, for the most part helped us to amplify the book because they were in it.
Phil: [00:47:32] So it wasn’t just about selling the books and look at people who endorse it. It was really more about using them as leverage to go amplify in the social media and help us sell a book for us. So if you read through it you’ll see it like we literally have like 200 people that we cited and so I went out and I contacted every single one of those people and say “you’re an influencer I use your content in my book and referenced it.” They were super psyched. It got us in a ton of different guest blog post situations in high authority websites. Which in turn has increased the SEO for Growth website authority super high in a short period of time and then when you actually use that as a leverage to launch these little ‘sitelits’ in other cities that you go type of like you know St. Louis right in our St. Louis SEO. You’ll see StLouis.SEOforGrowth.com. ranked number one for that search term which we did in a period of months. Atlanta we’re doing the same thing so we’re launching this out but you end up using this where it gets back to like trying to figure out how do you create one piece of content and leverage it, so you get 10, 20 X on it. This is the kind of stuff that you do. I think a lot of people would like endorsements or even with the podcast stuff they’re creating, don’t realize how much more you can leverage it in a content thing either for you or into different platforms so it gets me really pumped up that I’m talking about.
Kim: [00:48:45] I’m sitting here with my mouth open.
Phil: [00:48:50] I’m sweating.
Kim: [00:48:50] Well you know what I love about that too Phil is, you know everybody hears that repurpose content repurposed content but you’re not just saying take this turn into a PowerPoint make a video do this.
Kim: [00:49:01] You know it’s really it’s there’s a strategy behind it and I’m like oh my god this is awesome. You could sell something on podcasting on SEO because there’s nothing really good out there.
Phil: [00:49:12] Literally, like with Josh. Josh you’re an inspiration. I’m actually going to tag this and I hope John’s gonna amplify it and hopefully Josh will too. A couple other people that really help me I think..
Phil: [00:49:24] My whole life really kind of goes out in the day and agency with be guys like you know Brian Dean and back then go and Anne Handley who’s really the reason. You mention these guys I’m purposely mentioning them shamelessly in your podcast because I’m going to say “hey!” In my Linkedin post, hey I talked about you guys in this podcast. Check it out. And then hopefully they’ll amplify it and drive a bunch of content to you. Right. But that actually is the truth also.
Phil: [00:49:49] I wrote about him extensively in the book but it’s added another way to kind of you know drop Easter eggs in this kind of content so we can use it to leverage it many more times and just kind of your average interview.
Kim: [00:50:00] Well and I’m certainly going to link and mention them. Tweet them “Hey you were mentioned in this show.
Kim: [00:50:08] You know on that note what are your thoughts on Medium and repurpose like putting blog posts on there should it be original content linking back like any insight on that?
Phil: [00:50:18] Yes so the way I do it to get a few different ways I use a is a plugin called SNAP auto poster and snap enables me to basically plug all my major social media posts into WordPress so that when I hit publish it automatically publishes from WordPress to Medium and most of my social media. So the cool thing about Medium is when an automatically reposts you posted it. You don’t get dinged because they got the tag on here. So I would repost it, republish that as many times as you could. One of the coolest thing I think some of the influencers doing like, Neil Patel does is take one of his epic blog posts, republish like a third of it on LinkedIn and make you go back to the post.
Kim: [00:50:57] Ah smart.
Phil: [00:50:59] And that really works. I was like that’s a smart move. I’m going to start doing that myself. So you get it get it down to where I’ve got like some kind of a pull where you got something really interesting and “here’s the answer. Read more here.” Back to back to the blog post. All that kind of stuff on Linkedin and definitely on Medium.
Kim: [00:51:16] Like was putting the whole post on LinkedIn as I as an article.
Phil: [00:51:19] Some people put the whole post but I think it’s smart of the way he’s doing it. With a third or half of it and make him go back to the goodies to drive your traffic up. So that’s the way I do it except on my own. In my case on medium the way I’ve got to set up a website I’m auto posting everything as soon as I hit publish basically. I stagger them but it’s going the whole is going to Medium with link back to the website. Yeah that kind of stuff. For sure, you just have to be careful who you allow to or what platforms you allow to be published Brasov them. You’ll have the rel canonical tag on it and it’ll basically saying hey the source content is already here on this Web site so republishing is not going to hurt you from a duplicate content standpoint.
Kim: [00:52:00] Oh my God, this has been terrifying I feel like I could talk to you for two days and one more question and then I want to talk. We’ll wrap up some people know where to get the book and everything is what the last question is is would be with video on SEO. Like how does that play into you know a real solid strategy and what’s the best use for it.
Phil: [00:52:20] Well a couple different things on for me I think video in general you use it on your Web site decreases the dwell time we’re talking about but if you do it the right way, especially like video testimony and that kind of stuff is huge. Because every time we see it and you put first of all to goes back like that I mean I think the biggest thing in web design and web site Internet market right now is reviews right and trust and all that kind of stuff because whatever your political inclinations are because of this last election people trust the Internet a lot less. Yeah.
Phil: [00:52:54] So Google actually totally rewrote its quality guidelines like a month ago and it’s all based on trying to weed out fake news and all that kind of stuff because it’s like, oh you know people just don’t trust it. So being able to come back and use content in a way that increases that additional trust that we’ve lost the Internet is super important. Video is one of those things especially if you can make it personal and sure find ways to get your testimonials in there. It’s super important it’s also really important I think for SEO.
Phil: [00:53:21] I think you use the YouTube platform and embed drive people back and forth and make sure that you’ve got that. I believe that if you use an embedded YouTube content there, at least I’m paranoid enough to believe that using that data that on your website is probably an on page factor versus maybe using another platform. But it’s also just helpful to have that content republished up on YouTube because people can find it on its own.
Phil: [00:53:47] But on YouTube video content super important is really important for doing that know, like, trust that up on your Web site increasing dwell time, that kind of thing. Y.
Kim: [00:53:56] Yeah.
Phil: [00:53:57] But the every web site that we design has a video in the mockup on the homepage basically that’s how for a while.
Kim: [00:54:06] That kind of sums that up.
Kim: [00:54:08] So wrapping up obviously people can get and I’ll of course, have the links to the site and to Amazon on the book. Who would you recommend as SEO for Growth, who is the book for what.
Phil: [00:54:21] We wrote it for marketers web designers and entrepreneurs that’s kind of the title of the book. But I think I personally wrote a little bit more for web designers because I just kind of see, even out there right now. I mean it just seems like people get a little bit stuck in. I think my real thought is that so many businesses need help, right? And they marketing help, but web designers in particular don’t realize that they’ve got such a great entry point into businesses because that’s I guess three Web sites that are here in town. By far the one that generates the most leads is the people looking for what isn’t right.
Phil: [00:55:00] So, they’ve a got a great opportunity to get and talk to people and build them not a one time website, but position themselves in a way where they can become part of the team and not build a 3000 to 5000 website but build a website for five or ten thousand or 1000 or 2000 3000 dollars a month as a marketing partner. That’s a game changer for people. Right. And that’s really what I wrote the book for. It’s really about : “here’s what you could do.” Read through it, understand how you need to make a revenue generating website and create your own either, solo practice or your own agency where you can I think change your life. It’s definitely changed mine. And my again, my whole focus has been trying to build these things in a way that I think business owners resonate with on the revenue generating piece. And I think that’s kind of what my passion was for is. This is what we see on the based part of my business here in town really is almost rebuilding brand new websites. People go out a build them how they either lose traffic or they don’t generate traffic and then they go find somebody who can help us with SEO. And then we can say we’ve got to build a new website type of thing or so. And that’s kind of I think who we really wrote it for. But I think for a business owner that wants to get their head around and doesn’t want to read the thousand page Art of SEO book by Eric Enge, read SEO for Growth.
Phil: [00:56:12] So people when they read this they’re going to think it’s more about like content marketing. We’ve got a few people that have kind of reviewed it and this isn’t really about SEO, you know what it used to be. When you think about SEO it just used to be the tactical piece of SEO and link building. But Google is getting so much better in reaching out and seeing all these other things, like reviews and content. You know all of the stuff they’re able to kind of go out count, they have more a more holistic view and they’re starting to calculate that in their algorithm. So when you read it you’re seeing this cover all these different areas that basically ends up being digital marketing. And that’s what I really think what you know as SEO today is it’s not just about all those little technical pieces under the hood, it’s about all these other things because that’s what Google starting to count.
Kim: [00:56:52] Oh my God. This has been. I feel like I just got like an extra degree or something like a certification, not. But, but again I think you know a lot my audience, it’s pretty much marketers, web designers, entrepreneurs. And if you’re not building an agency take this and implement it for yourself and it just I’m thrilled because being a fan of content marketing it’s like you’ve totally validated my belief in that.
Kim: [00:57:21] I mean I’ve seen that it works for myself but. So where is the best place for people to get the book.
Phil: [00:57:27] Well trying to get people to the website, SEO for Growth, that we’ve got because on their book page we actually have a little eBook on the ones Larry Kim from WordStream gave us an e-book. I think they charge for and it’s we got them for free and we got one from the Yoast folks that got one of their books. You go buy the book on Amazon and go back to the website page and enter the Amazon code on here you get your, it’s a three e-book on bundle pack. That’s really only on our website. That’s probably worth another $20 in there and the guys have contributed to that too. So we’re trying to send people to the official book website.
Kim: [00:58:11] That’s right. Well I mean it’s great I mean there’s other info on here as well and you definitely have some experts endorsing the book too. I mean it’s fantastic. You certainly practice what you preach. So Phil I am so stoked that we did this. Thank you so much for being here.
Phil: [00:58:25] Thank you. You ruined my life last week.
Phil: [00:58:27] I got so sucked into some of those podcasts I literally especially the one you had one with the there was another web designer on it. You and her were just kind of talking shop about people. I was so into that one because it’s like all those things were resonating. You know great stuff.
Kim: [00:58:44] Thank you. I totally appreciate it. And yeah this week I’m look forward. I’ve got one coming out on just the hype the internet marketing and my own predictions for where things are going so you just never know.
Kim: [00:58:56] All right guys you know the drill. So just stay tuned. I will have some links. Everything. And then some will now be in the show. Now it’s because now my brain is spinning. But hang on. As always thanks so much for listening and I will catch you guys next week.
Kim: [00:59:19] All right guys I know I totally geeked out on that show with Phil my brain, I have to tell you it was spinning for a long time after that episode and I am going through the book with a highlighter and a pen and he just. Wow. Awesome interview. I hope you guys got some gold nuggets from that one and wrote it down so be sure to go to SEO for Growth dot com ordered the book through Amazon all the links are in the show notes and just connects with them. Phil is a great guy. So yeah I am really excited that was a ton of fun.