bidsketch propsal software

Bidsketch Proposal Software Founder Ruben Gamez

Ruben is the founder of Bidsketch, a bootstrapped SaaS app that’s used by thousands of freelancers, agencies and sales teams to create professional looking client proposals. He launched it on the side nine years ago, working nights and weekends, and grew it into a profitable product shortly after it launched. He’s also now starting a new SaaS called Docsketch, which is an electronic signature product that gets sales documents signed 40% faster.

Learn More about Ruben & Bidsketch

Meet Bidsketch Founder Ruben Gamez

Phil Singleton: Ruben, welcome to the show.

Ruben Gamez: Hey. How you doing? Thanks for inviting me.

Phil Singleton: Yeah, it’s going to be really fun. First, I’d just love to get just a little bit of your background, like whatever happened your first steps out of whatever your last stop and kind of the academic world is. Whether if it was high school, college, graduate school, whatever that was like and jumping into the real world, like how you started. Was it in a different direction, jumped somewhere else? Tell us kind of how your path that led you here today was.

Ruben Gamez: Sure. I never went to high school, so I was 15-ish or something when I was done with that and I started working construction actually, in California. That’s how I started out. It wasn’t until years later where I moved to South Florida and I was working … I was at the time, I think it was in my early like 20, 21, just getting into all sorts of trouble. I sort of grew up in a bad area in California. Lots of gangs and all that stuff.

Ruben Gamez: Moved to Florida to kind of get out of trouble and got back into trouble a bit for a little while. Then just got tired of it. Decided that I needed, I should probably go to school or do something. I decided to get a job as a security job, because that’s a good … I could do that at night, do my homework, get paid, then eventually get a job in something. At my job being a security guard, I met this programmer at it was an American Express building. He asked me what were my plans, what was I thinking of doing. I told him going to school. He said, “For what?” I said “I don’t know.” I didn’t really come from that world. I didn’t know any people who had gone to college or stuff like that.

Ruben Gamez: He took out his paycheck from his pocket and showed it to me. He said, “You should get into programming.” I saw that and said, “Wow.” As far as legit money made, that was the most that I had ever seen. I didn’t know that people actually made that much money, so I decided okay I think I’ll check into this. I did, but I went to this really crappy technical school where they have programming. I did that for about a year, and then …

Phil Singleton: What was that like? Pulling your hair out? Did you figure out it was something you wanted to do? Was it like I’m not sure about this?

Well I didn’t know anything about computers. I didn’t have a computer, so my biggest fear was that I’d start school day one and they’d ask us to turn on the computers and that I would just be standing there not knowing how to turn on a computer.

– Ruben Gamez

Ruben Gamez: Well I didn’t know anything about computers. I didn’t have a computer, so my biggest fear was that I’d start school day one and they’d ask us to turn on the computers and that I would just be standing there not knowing how to turn on a computer. So because I didn’t have a computer. What I would do is I would write out programs on a notepad at home, and then when I got back to class I typed them all out and of course they had errors and stuff like that. It was about six months before I was able to get hold of a computer to be able to start thing that way.

Ruben Gamez: Then I met somebody and got a job doing technical support for Compaq. It was just like $12.00 an hour or something like that, but it was a lot of money to me at the time. I thought I made it. That’s it. I stopped going to school after about a year. Through there I met somebody else who had his own website. I asked him how he did that. He just like…you can teach yourself all sorts of web stuff. I just got fascinated with it and spent a lot of time doing it. Built up a couple of websites. Did a lot of stuff with computers and all that stuff. Just self-taught. Actually I’m studying between calls and all that stuff at that place.

Ruben Gamez: Now after about a year, year and a half or something like that, I created a thick portfolio and got certifications for the past and got certifications for programming for different things and got a job doing development. They hired me at a payroll company. It’s a privately held payroll company in the United States. They hired me … At the time it was small at the time. Just a very small amount of people. They didn’t have a developer, so I was the first one that they hired. They said that they really didn’t plan on building their development team around here. It was kind of like a test for them. Definitely a test for me. Then over the next few years I spent there eight years. I learned more-

Phil Singleton: At that time you must have really been picking up some hard skills at that point, so that was a nice-

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. Once I got into it, like when I first got the tech support job I spent all day, all night just programming.

Phil Singleton: Wow okay. You’re off and running then.

Ruben Gamez: I have an obsessive-type personality. Over the years I hired a couple people. I became a dev lead then hired more people. Then I had dev leads, eventually I ended up where I was managing the web development department, managing managers as well as business and other things like that. That’s where I realized that I was making a lot of money, but I didn’t like what I was doing because I wasn’t programming anymore and all that stuff. Read a couple books about just starting your own business and doing products and did that on the side and had some success. Grew it for about a year and a half, and then there was enough to replace my salary. Then did that and grew a team there and all that stuff.

Phil Singleton: So that last job at the payroll company was when you started the sketch on the side that was the birth of …

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. After being there many years and getting promoted and getting bumps in salary. I got to a point there like okay money isn’t really … Because when you’re poor it was a big deal. But then once you start getting at once you have it, if you’re not doing something that you don’t really enjoy, then …

Phil Singleton: Days get really long.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah.

Phil Singleton: That’s so awesome, dude. That’s the most, probably the most amazing story I think I’ve heard in tech firsthand like that. Really cool and inspirational how you totally … You bootstrapped the app. You have it up in your bio, but you basically bootstrapped an entire career from … It could have gone a totally different direction if you didn’t have the ambition and tenacity to make it happen. That is so awesome. Wow. I’m blown away. I didn’t know that was your whole story. I mean, I’ve known of you and known you kind of, for a few years now, but I didn’t know that part of your story. Thanks for sharing that. That’s amazing.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah of course. It’s always hard to know where to start when somebody asks about … Go back to where school or wherever you started and say …

More About Bidsketch

Phil Singleton: That’s the thing, is like where you’re … yeah. So awesome. Let’s talk a little bit about what Bidsketch is, because like I said, a lot of our listeners, probably half or more are digital marketers and they have their own agency, whether its web design or SCO or that type of thing. We played around with doing … I never really committed to getting one, course I probably now am going to sign up for Bidsketch and really make this happen. We still, embarrassingly enough, still do stuff in documents, right. We do a lot of proposals. Tell us what, how Bidsketch would make my life different and maybe some other freelancers or agencies that are still doing it the hard, old-fashioned way.

Ruben Gamez: Sure. Most people that really like Bidsketch, they use it because basically the biggest benefit that most people get is that it cuts their proposal time by a lot. On average we say in half a lot, but there are a lot of people that say they go from hours to really just minutes. That’s the reason we do that in Bidsketch is because it lest you save up parts of proposals and entire proposals. It lets you set up not just templates, but also sections of proposals and sort of piece together, mix and match sections, images, stuff like that very quickly to create proposals. Then also automatically as you’re doing that … Let’s say as you’re putting information or templates that you have, it will automatically replace the main address, different fields, so that you’re not manually having to update that. Also getting to update that because it’s a common thing. When people are working with proposals, where they’re renaming or copying to update something. Of course that’s an embarrassing situation when you’re unable to Along with that, also helps in notifications. You get to know when they actually open the proposal, when they read it, how long they read it, if they downloaded it. Then it makes the whole-

Phil Singleton: Are you sending them to an HTML place to look at, or is it a PDF?

Ruben Gamez: It’s a link. Once it’s done, they can either send it directly through Bidsketch or they can grab sort of and share the link.

Phil Singleton: Then when they open the link, that’s how you snag the analytics of how often they checked it-

Ruben Gamez: Right. They email all that and it’s viewable on the Bidsketch website.

Phil Singleton: Then they can download it? It sounds like they can download it-

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, they can download the PDF version of it as well. Then once they’re okay with it, they approve it, there are things like optional fees so they can just select, which is good for upselling and stuff like that. That’s helpful. All the people like that. Then the electronic signature part of it where they can just approve, sign really quickly without having to download the whole print, fax, email back.

Phil Singleton: Is there anything like, hey okay I did it online. I signed it, let’s say electronic signature, something that would trigger say some of us have a web development project we do fixed fee and half down type of thing, tie-in to an invoice-type situation, or …

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, we integrate with Fresh Books with Zapier, and then we have the zap integration so that taps into over a thousand apps at this point. Most any invoicing app can be integrated using the Zap integrations.

Phil Singleton: So it kind of works like that, where you could get a down-payment right like on an action or something? Let’s say I signed a proposal. Then what?

Ruben Gamez: Then you can either send the invoice through Bidsketch, but if you have an integration tied in, then you will send it through your integration. Or, some people they have an embed or payment for link that they add to their approval message. In Bidsketch, you can have approval …

Ruben Gamez: Their approval message, so in Bidsketch, you didn’t have approval messages. Once something gets approved, you can have like, “Okay, great. The next steps are steps; download this or whatever, and please fill this out” and you can have a payment button or link there. You can basically put in HTML in there.

Phil Singleton: Sweet. So most of your clients, what are they like? Professional Services? I could see that some might not work for a home services or a plumber or something like that, but for agencies, freelancers-

Ruben Gamez: Definitely we do have a fair amount of home services as well. We have-

Phil Singleton: Oh for like, okay they’re doing projects or something like that, like maybe a remodeling, right? And then they would have a proposal.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, like remodeling … All sorts of stuff. It used to be very specific to mostly freelancers and agencies, marketers, web designers. Over the years, we’ve gotten more variety. We still have that segment as well, but we not necessarily having more sales teams join the system, and home services and different types of businesses, and basically anybody at this point that sends out client proposals.

Ruben Gamez: At the very beginning we were for creatives, specifically.

Phil Singleton: Awesome. Let’s get into how you got this launch and how you ended up getting clients and the digital marketing part of it because, here you’ve got a great tool that can help people grow their businesses by helping them save time and streamlining the process, but at some point, even still today we all wanna grow some more. What got you started in terms of getting new customers and getting the ball rolling, getting some traction sales wise, and what thing are you doing today, to keep new clients and leads coming in?

Ruben Gamez: Sure. At the very beginning before I had started building out any part of the app, I was reading books about marketing and starting with marketing first. So I don’t remember what I had come across but there was something related to SDL that I’d read and I thought it sounded too easy. You do a little bit of research, you find out what people are searching for. Then write some content that targets that key word, or those key words and then you’ll start getting traffic.

Ruben Gamez: Before building the product, what I did was just do a test. I did that exact thing. I wrote a post, I put it in out there and within two weeks it started ranking on Google and getting some traffic, so I thought “wow, this actually works. This is actually pretty cool.” I put a landing page of small email us, and just started with content a little bit. Then immediately did some research to just figure out if this is something people will pay for because at the time, there was nothing like this. Initially it was a little rough to where I wasn’t sure if people … I was getting mixed feedback, but decided I was getting good enough feedback more importantly, from the traffic that I had gotten. I started getting not a lot, it was just a little, but from when you’re starting from zero, any amount of traffic is great. And just the people that were signing up to email us, when’d they’d reply there was excitement there. That’s where it was like encouragement.

Ruben Gamez: Then I started building the product out and at the same time I was doing some back and forth, of product work and marketing. I didn’t wanna just entirely … I kind of understood and it made sense that marketing was important. So it was mostly SEO I did some AdWords back then too, just learning about AdWords and started off with the really high cost-per-click and through a course that I was taking at the time. I’m like “Okay you can get that down like with most things in marketing, your first attempt is probably not going to be the best, right?

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: It’s gonna start off a little rough, but as long as it’s close, it’s like “Okay, I can improve on this, and get it better.” And that’s exactly what I did. Not having the experience, for me, just trusting the stuff I was reading online or wherever out I was coming across it. Just doing the work. With doing the work and making a good effort and doing some research, it started working a little bit too. Nothing was working to this huge amount. It’s just a little bit of traffic, some traffic through paid ads, some traffic through FCO, but certainly enough to keep me interested and it’s like, “Wow, okay, I’m getting something. Some people are setting up to the email list.”

Ruben Gamez: When I got to the point of where it was time to launch, I followed a game plan that from Balsamiq mockups had done a year before, and he wrote about it, which was basically just email a bunch of blogs and tell them that you’re launching … This is funny, back then, this was way more effective than it is now, as are a lot of things … and offer discounts, ask them if they want to write a review about it, and all that stuff. People would. So I only got three people, I emailed I don’t remember how many, we’ll say fifty blogs, that got a good amount of traffic, that had the right type of customer and I got almost no replies, at all.

Phil Singleton: Wow.

Ruben Gamez: It was not … my pitch probably wasn’t the best and that was not very encouraging, but I did get a couple of replies and one of them was a write from About.com and they said yeah, they’d be good. So that was just-

Phil Singleton: That’s a nice one, yeah.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. It was really big back then. Then they wrote about it; I launched it in … it wasn’t until weeks later that I got one reply back and then another replied back, some of it was from the original emails. I don’t know why they were so delayed, but it’s like “yeah, well write a review about it.” At the time I was just focusing on designers, so it was like design blogs mostly. The way it works, a lot of times, is that once one writes about you, or once you’re being seen in the right place, the others immediately start following.

Phil Singleton: Okay. Snowball a little bit.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. So that got like that. That counted for some good early traffic … customers. When I launched I did a whole beta period for two weeks, and then the first day I, by the end of the launch, it ended up with 22 paying customers. I did a whole drip campaign that I just ripped off from a friend of mine, who had launched a educational product, but he was following … What’s the guy that’s really famous for his … He’s known for his launch sequence … I think it’s called Launch, literally. I can’t remember.

Phil Singleton: I’m drawing a blank myself.

Ruben Gamez: He’s an internet marketer type guy, but basically, the method is you take a self letter and you put it in a drip campaign, is what it is. Following that, got some good results for someone who’d never done it before, or anything like that. Then after launch, I started getting good reviews, and I started emailing other apps that had similar audiences to us, asking them if they were interested in cross promoting.

Phil Singleton: By this time though, had you had a big break or was it slowly snowballing a little bit?

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, just snowballing. There was no explosion of anything; just pushing, pushing, pushing, hustling. But this is all within the first few weeks of it launching. Got those write ups all within let’s say the first couple of months. I’m emailing a whole bunch of blogs, I’m emailing people who had similar products asking if they wanted to cross promote. Started doing integrations, started doing some integration marketing to where we’d ask them, “we’re thinking of building out an integration with you. You’re one of our top integrations but we’re trying to find out which ones to prioritize so just wanted to check in and see what you can do on the promotional side to help out.”

Phil Singleton: Wow that’s great.

Ruben Gamez: Most of them promoted us because we did that. The biggest one was Fresh Books.

Phil Singleton: Yeah they’re great!

Ruben Gamez: They said, “Yeah we’ll promote you” which is really cool because they had millions of users at the time.

Phil Singleton: Sure.

Ruben Gamez: And when they send out their email to their email newsletter, I was getting so many sign ups, I though our server was hacked.

Phil Singleton: That was a great break!

Ruben Gamez: That one was a good one, and it was just through sending a bunch of emails doing integrations, but [crosstalk 00:23:51] integrations, but actually before we even did the integration, making sure that the ones we’re gonna do first are the ones that are gonna promote us.

Phil Singleton: Right. That’s really smart.

Ruben Gamez: Then more SEO; we worked on proposal templates which that was a big focus and just created a lot more of those because people were searching for that.

Ruben Gamez: SEO. All throughout this period we’re still also doing SEO, but all those other things helped because they helped us get mentions and links, and things that just help Google say, “Hey, there’s a lot of activity around this brand” so any SEO efforts we had going on would be more effective as well. SEO turned out to be the thing that was working the best. All the other stuff was pretty manual, but very useful when you’re getting started and when you’re starting from nothing or very little.

Phil Singleton: Yeah.

Ruben Gamez: Then once well sell, okay, we can get a lot more leverage through creating content focusing on very specific types of key words and where the intent is closely aligned to somebody who will pay for a product, and that’s where we just spend all of our time and had the most growth through that.

Phil Singleton: Nice. You still do that a lot today, but on the content I see, you’re obviously blogging on your site. I see blogging on authority websites as well. I mean you put-

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, but I would say the blog side of it would be more of an indirect benefit, more branding related actually, than for customer acquisition. Other content that’s not on the blog is much more effective for converting to paid customers. This is the same for most people that I know that have a blog.

Phil Singleton: You mean when you’re getting published on other people’s websites?

Ruben Gamez: We did that. A lot of guest postings and stuff like that. But I just mean on.

Ruben Gamez:  We did that, a lot of guest postings and stuff like that. But I just mean on our site, like by other people, they’re not typical, like what you typically see on a blog. Which is a lot of top of funnel content, you know?

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: Just content like what they, even content within the blog if it’s closer-aligned to somebody who’s going to be a paying customer. So, we might have, so something that did really well for us in the early days when we were focusing on designers was how to write a web design proposal. Right?

Phil Singleton: Okay.

Ruben Gamez: And it’s because there’s somebody who’s searching for this and that’s what they have to do right now. And a lot of them find the information useful but if they also come across a tool that helps them do this…

Phil Singleton: Yeah.

Ruben Gamez: Right, just, it’s perfect for that. Compared to like how to do proper upselling for your client. How to follow up on your proposals. How to…

Phil Singleton: Gotcha.

Ruben Gamez: Even though it’s proposal related, it’s a little more top of funnel, and the conversions are less. So we have content that does, so we have content like, we have a post on networking, we have a post on creating sort of like customer profiles and narrowing down and targeting your ideal customer as, you know, as an agency or whatever. And each one of those, let’s say, gets, one of them gets about 2500 uniques a month, the other one lights up, gets about 3000 uniques a month. Not that many conversions compared to content that maybe gets 500 uniques a month. But that is more closely aligned with…

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: …somebody who’s going to be a customer.

Phil Singleton: Gotcha. I mean, I’m putting you on the spot there but you think of one that’s like a topic that’s more, so top of funnel ones I can get more traffic, less conversions. But is there one you can think off the top of your head that’s, here’s a like a sample and we could actually link to, there’s like, oh here’s one that’s got, you know? Maybe not as much traffic cause it’s not top of funnel, but, you know we can…

Ruben Gamez: So just like our proposal templates.

Phil Singleton: Those get, okay.

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. So we have…

Phil Singleton: A page on that, that gets good…

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. So I’m just thinking about like our agency proposal template. When I did the keyword “research” for it, there were at the time, it changes over time, but at the time it was pretty low. It was not that high. And of course it was easier because nobody was really targeted because there’s just not that many searches for it. Created something for it because it’s like, “Okay, this is the right type of customer even if we’re not going to get a bunch of traffic.” I see this all the time. This happened to us several times.

Ruben Gamez: So something that’s, okay, there may be 90 searches a month or something. And generally, nowadays I wouldn’t target something like that as much unless it’s just really perfect.

Phil Singleton: Yes.

Ruben Gamez: And created it, put it out there, started getting traffic to it over, nowadays it takes a lot more time to get.

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: Starting from zero. But then, turns out, oh, we’re getting more than that. Let’s say we’re getting like 500. So five times or ten times the amount that is shown on there. It’s just better. But not just that, it converts really, really, really well.

Phil Singleton: That’s awesome.

Ruben Gamez: The type of customer is good. So we have pieces of content that are like that.

Phil Singleton: That’s awesome. Is there anything else that you’ve tried? I mean, do you ever try any, like, traditional things? Trade shows or any kind of paid stuff? I don’t know. Any like cold calling back in the day? You ever try any of that? Just out of curiosity. Anything that kinda?

Ruben Gamez: Did a lot of AdWords, and it just over time got really expensive, so…

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: Do a little bit of it nowadays. But not as much. It used to be more effective for us. Facebook ads, have done a lot with Facebook ads and we’ve just not been able to make it work at scale. So we can make it work for, so, if we were starting out from nothing, or had very low volume, then it would be worth the effort to continue to do the Facebook ad campaigns that worked for us.

Phil Singleton: Facebook’s really, really tricky like right now. I hear a lot of people complaining that, you know…

Ruben Gamez: Yeah, it’s getting harder and harder.

Phil Singleton: You’re not, people aren’t seeing stuff they even want to see now. It’s like so scaled back organically. Like just recently.

Ruben Gamez: Right. It’s all leaning towards ads. But we, so we can get ads to work, but at a small scale. Once we turn up the scale, like they stop working, they get too expensive. But because we were sort of like a SAS business and we need a large number of trials and large number of customers to move the needle, if, you know, we’re just adding five a month or ten a month, it’s just not worth our time.

Phil Singleton: Got, yeah, ends up being more to…

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. But if it was the early days, then, you know, great.

Phil Singleton: You gotta do it.

Ruben Gamez: Right. But once you get to a certain scale you sort of stop doing the things that, you know, take, it’s about like opportunity costs. Okay, how much time is this taking compared to other things that we could do that are just come out? Give us a bigger return. But like my wife is starting to do photography and I experimented with Facebook ads, the Messenger Facebook ads, recently.

Phil Singleton: Like the chat bot stuff, yeah?

Ruben Gamez: Yeah. Those were really good. Those were super effective for her. And very cheap. Very cheap. I was surprised. So I think I’ll, you know, I’ll be trying some of that with our software products as well. But as far as like a services business, that was pretty easy. Now that’s kind of newer, so that’s the way it kind of works, right? Like…

Phil Singleton: Right.

Ruben Gamez: Things that are newer, or just cheaper, and Facebook sort of wants to encourage people to do that more. So they’re gonna be more effective. Then everybody gets on board and they get less effective, you know? Then you have to look for the next thing.

Phil Singleton: Exactly. Dude, this has been really awesome. I really appreciate sharing this much insight with us. How, where’s your favorite places that people can find you and follow you, you’re most active? Is it LinkedIn, Twitter, socially? And tell us again your website?

Ruben Gamez: Sure. Probably Twitter, @earthlingworks on Twitter.

Phil Singleton: Okay, I’ll make sure I include that.

Ruben Gamez: Bidsketch of course for proposals, and Docsketch for electronic signatures.

Phil Singleton: So is that, yeah, Docsketch, is that out yet, or what’s the?

Ruben Gamez: It’s in early access. So it hasn’t launched yet, but… So that one was interesting because we’re just starting, we’re starting from scratch. Right? So it’s a new website, new brand, no traffic, and we’re now up to like 5000 uniques a month.

Phil Singleton: Nice.

Ruben Gamez: And starting to scale that up. But it’s really the same sort of strategy that I laid out in a recent post, where we basically said, “When you have competitors, it’s really nice.” With Bidsketch we didn’t have this luxury, there weren’t that many, there weren’t any competitors, direct competitors. But the way I think about competitors now differently nowadays. It’s just like anybody that has the same type of traffic that you want, look at their site through tools that can tell you about how they get customers and traffic and all that.

Ruben’s Favorite Software Tool

Phil Singleton: And what are some of your favorite tools to do that?

Ruben Gamez: My favorite, number one, is Ahrefs.

Phil Singleton: Yeah.

Ruben Gamez: That’s really the best tool for that. And it’ll tell you what are the top pages, how much traffic are those pages getting, what keywords the site is targeting, where are they getting links, links are really important. And you’ll find all sorts of stuff that is accidental for other companies that you can just sort of double down on.

Ruben Gamez: So like I was doing research on this other product that I’m probably going to be building out. And it’s just for sign up forms, you know? So it’s signup.com and SignUpGenius are the two biggest companies. And they had a couple of pages that were like, that they had written and posted about sign up sheets. But they didn’t have anything else on their site about sign up sheets. Just drilling, using Ahrefs, it’s like, “Okay, this gets some good volume, it’s not very competitive, and they wrote a post about it but they weren’t really targeted. Sort of like an accident. And then they don’t have any other content targeting it.”

Ruben Gamez: So then I just, using a keyword research tool, just sort of like, what types of sign up sheets are people searching for? I found all sorts of different types of sign up sheets, a ton of volume, not very competitive. So we’re gonna be, over the next few weeks, building that out. But it’s, that’s…

Phil Singleton: Just a serendipitous…

Ruben Gamez: Happens all the time. All the time.

Phil Singleton: We see an opportunity through just knowing SEO.

Ruben Gamez: That’s why competitive research like that is really, really, really good. Because a lot of sites get traffic by accident that they’re not taking advantage of. And tools like Ahrefs can tell you where it’s coming from, and you can, like, maybe it’s an accident for them, but we can do it on purpose.

Phil Singleton: In your case you can not only create better content and outrank them again, but you can build a new business around it.

Ruben Gamez: Right. Exactly. Yes.

Phil Singleton: That’s really awesome. So we’re gonna check out Docsketch too, and, you know, link to that and stuff, and any articles that you have as an example of anything else that we talked about, please send those so we can put them in the show notes as well. But Ruben, so awesome man. This has been really, really cool. I so much appreciate you joining us and sharing your experience with me and our users, listeners. Great, great episode. I can’t wait to promote this one.

Ruben Gamez: Alright, well, thanks, thanks for inviting me. It was fun.